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Xeogaming Forums - General Chat - Freedom of speech near it's end?
  
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Elara
Posts: 4678/9734		 I would just like to point out that the Jim Crow laws and other such legislation was passed, accepted, and defended for well over 50 years before it was declared unconstitutional, and even then it was still fought for. Better for the bill not to pass at all.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus
Posts: 2787/4540
Originally posted by Thor
It's past our time.
We need to overthrow the government. NOW.
The Declaration of Independence says we can do it if we're feeling persecuted.
We have to revolt. We must.
If we don't rally a valiant counter-offensive against this corruption, this will only be a tragic prelude to the downfall of American society.
We must preserve our liberty. And we must do it now.


Thor, what the heck? You're suggesting a rebellion that would result in thousands of deaths?

You're suggesting that because we can't make plans of violence,t aht we need to rebel? Do I really need to say anything more?

Thex summed up most of my thoughts while quoting Metal_Man88
FX
Posts: 2857/3775		 I have to agree with what you said there, Thex, except one thing.

Originally posted by Metal_Man88
I believe this to be alarmist. Pass or no pass, it won't ultimately magically turn us into a fascist country. Why? The people don't want that. In fact, they've shown utter discontent with how things are now. If they began cracking down as described here, government would break down entirely.


No one's saying it will magically make us fascist, but it is a step among many in that direction. I mean, we've already got people getting arrested for giving out "Impeach Bush" pins, and a man who the cops beat the shit out of for hanging his flag upside down...
Astrophel
Posts: 1866/2724

The majority of this post will be quotes from someone who's being sane.

Originally posted by Metal_Man88
If this bill gets passed, they're going to have a hard time arresting all the people for things enshrined in the Constitution.

That is, if they use it the way it is claimed there.

However, I've discovered many absolutely frightening bills already have been passed, with equal or even superior misuse abilities to this one.

Guess why they haven't been abused?

The media, the American people in general create a tremendous outcry at anything considered to be against the spirit of the nation. This is why stuff like Enron came toppling down. How slavery and subsequent Jim Crow laws eventually died.

I believe this to be alarmist. Pass or no pass, it won't ultimately magically turn us into a fascist country. Why? The people don't want that. In fact, they've shown utter discontent with how things are now. If they began cracking down as described here, government would break down entirely.

I propose that the bill is merely some red tape to allow them to better catch terrorists. It is powerful... and thus easily abusable... but somehow I doubt the Supreme Court would allow it to be used for these wide-ranging abuses people like to claim it can have.

Instead, I believe anti-American or anti-Bush people are using it as an excuse to attack the government. I understand why, but I think it's the wrong tact. (Well, sure. I'm all for attacking the bill itself. But announcing the death of America due to one bill is, frankly, absurd. Unless that bill, of course, said 'The Constitution is Null and Void' in shiny letters.)

Ultimately, the country fluctuates between low and high with rights and laws like this. Given a new era, this legislation will die of disuse. And given this era, their ability to use it will probably be crippled by media and other attacks on it, plus the inevitable calls for it to be dismantled (See: 'Patriot' Act.)


Originally posted by Metal_Man88, later post
Here we go.

A non-hysterical reaction.

Originally posted by "Ars Technica"

Similar claims are made in a lengthy piece at The Indypendent, and a follow-up piece on blogosphere reaction shows just how hyped-up the rhetoric here has become ("Stop S. 1959 or lose Internet free speech," one poster wrote). Such rhetoric seems more than a bit over the top, since the commission doesn't have the power to make laws or to rewrite the Constitution. Still, if the issue concerns you, now would be an excellent time to contact your senator.


This bill is dumb, but why haven't our rights already been destroyed? I have yet to be heckled by any government agents despite the fact my views conflict with this administration's. (Primarily, I preferred the old Clinton days, or, heck, most of the previous presidents.)

There will always be some example of rights abuse, and I agree that things get a bit touchy here.

But screaming bloody murder and announcing the end of America won't make it go away. :p


Now, how about we think before we freak out, hmm?
FX
Posts: 2855/3775
Originally posted by Ryan
Oh no! Now people can't play billiards properly because they aren't allowed to use forcing in it! :O


Because billiards is forcing your ideals or religious beliefs?

Heh... I just noticed... People would have to enFORCE the law. Therefore, nothing could be done about it if someone forced something, because then the police and government would be breaking it too


Except that wouldn't be against the government, which is stated in the law.
The Accidental Protege
Posts: 2394/2641		 It's past our time.
We need to overthrow the government. NOW.
The Declaration of Independence says we can do it if we're feeling persecuted.
We have to revolt. We must.
If we don't rally a valiant counter-offensive against this corruption, this will only be a tragic prelude to the downfall of American society.
We must preserve our liberty. And we must do it now.
Ryan
Posts: 1311/1748		 Oh no! Now people can't play billiards properly because they aren't allowed to use forcing in it! :O

Seriously though, this is probably the reason 1984 was written. Things are going too Big Brother as it is (Such as in London, on an average day you'll be seen by fifty cameras) and technically people would have to be watching other people to enforce such laws.

Heh... I just noticed... People would have to enFORCE the law. Therefore, nothing could be done about it if someone forced something, because then the police and government would be breaking it too, eventually leading to rebellion among the people until the law was abolished!
FX
Posts: 2852/3775		 Yes, but all the others are still on there, aren't they?
Lord Vulkas Mormonus
Posts: 2786/4540		 Look at definition 22 on your list, Hiro. Oh, and I assume that 30 probably ISN'T what we're thinking of.
FX
Posts: 2850/3775		 Let me just throw this out there: the dictionary's definition of force.

Now, if taken to court, a judge could say "Well, it only meant brute force." To which the prosecutor would respond with "But it doesn't say brute force." To which the judge would have to conceed, because the law just says force.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus
Posts: 2783/4540
Originally posted by One Shot One Kill

Edit: I don't want to fight for a country that has taken all my rights away. If this bill is passed... I'm just going to serve my 8 and leave the army.


Trust me, this bill won't be passed by congress, just one senator would mention your problem with it, and the whole thing will go away.

@Kaijin, not a lot I can say in response to you, except that I doubt that your alternant definitions of force would hold up in court.

I honestly don't think that any jury would be stupid enough to accept that use of the word force. Force means to make something do something esle, with no choice given to the object, like me forcing a block to slide along a floor.

Although, I do admit this law will be abused a bit, but I don't think that it was intended to be amde in the way you mention it.

This bill is the least of my worries about the government so far, anyway.

EDIT: And just so you all know, it was I who fixed your title to Freedom of speech, instead of freedom at speech.

Just tell me if you want it changed back, but the grammar was really bugging me.
True Flight
Posts: 3156/5243
Originally posted by Kyoku kun
Originally posted by Fennicy
*cough* I think I'll move to Japan now.

See you there!

EDIT: The color bugs me.. *layout n00b and has no idea how to fix*


I think I'll help you with that.


EVERYONE jesus christ this was posted up for a reason. Call the damn 1877 866 or 800 numbers asap! TALK to your senators office about this. I'm truly against. I've got my whole family doing this for a reason. If you're going to sit there and rant about how the USA is screwing things up THEN DO SOMETHING.

You may say I don't make a difference or it wouldn't matter. The majority may not have called our senators when that article was first put out, but we are getting there! MORE people are calling... Call the damn switch boards and SAY SOMETHING!

Edit: I don't want to fight for a country that has taken all my rights away. If this bill is passed... I'm just going to serve my 8 and leave the army.
Kaijin Surohm
Posts: 1475/1852		 Vulkar, I won't make this into a debate, but I thought I should shed my sight on this as well as what you did, so that way people can take in what they want, and make their own decisions =P For the record, I'm pro bush (not going to argue as to why) and I like the idea of the government putting their foot down, but goddamn.

I can understand what you mean by FORCE, but the problem is, I know how people work. If this bill passes, it will be yet again, another form of a weapon people can use against their own humanity. Just as that article had stated, mearly stopping someone in the street to talk can be considered as using FORCE. That's the problem with this, and I know where it will eventually lead.

While the idea of FORCE being manipulated into using nothing more then Brute FORCE may sound appealing, and sounds like a failsafe, really, but I know how it will turn out. Saying it's Brute FORCE will only cause people to feel safe about the idea of this bill passing, only until they realized their in too deep. That's when people will have to be mindful of what they say for fear that they will be thrown in jail for being a terrorist. Force is a everything. Walking is a force, talking is a force, FORCE in general is too generic of a term to assume its just "Brute Force".

Here is an easy example of what I'm talking about.

Jehovah Witness.

I'm sure theres little need for elaboration.

But for a more complicated example:

Typing on a blog would be considered Force. It takes human force to press a key in, and it takes force to endure the long moments it takes to fully type out something in length. The government knows that one of the best sources of information comes from someone who can write. Words are a powerful weapon, because their not like our memory, words don't falter. If you write something down, it's there until you erase it, so you can always go back to that same paper and re-read what was written. Weather those words are true or not are a different matter.

Just because of that, Message Boards, MySpace, LiveJournal, and every other source of user written sources would either be destroyed or HEAVILY watched. It would make you nervous to even go online for fear that "Big Brother" might be watching you.

But on a lighter side:

On top of that, but you would have to consider "Soccer Mom" the one FORCE in the world that is hell bent on your destruction. If she even hears you breath something negative, she could use that as her weapon to turn you into a terrorist. =P
Lord Vulkas Mormonus
Posts: 2782/4540		 Alright, I honestly CANNOT resist taking the side that everyone so far is against....yet again.

Now,t here is one part of this article that matters. ONLY one part.

This part:

?...ideologically based violence? means the use, planned use, or threatened use of force or violence by a group or individual to promote the group or individual?s political, religious, or social beliefs...


Everything else in the article is speculation. No facts, jsut a general idea that some guy thinks it means. note that the word the statement uses is FORCE.

FORCE

That means saying, "I'm going to go beat up these guys and FORCE them to in my social ideals. I'm going to FORCE someone to be a republican. I'm going to FORCE somone to be my religion.

Force means the other guy doesn't have a choice. All this is doing is reinforcing the freedom of belief part, which I'll note, is also a part of the constitution. You can say whatever you want about things, so long as you don't FORCE them to believe.

If they still have choice, it's legal.

Everything else in the article is speculation for the left wing anti-Bush conspiracies.
Bitmap
Posts: 5319/7838
Originally posted by Intergalactic Cybot G
The American Government is full of dipshits.

There, they'll have to wage war on Canada to get at me.

...oh, crap.


Yeah you are fucked my friend. Canada is MERGING with us.

Enjoy our AIDS
Kyoku kun
Posts: 749/1329
Originally posted by Fennicy
*cough* I think I'll move to Japan now.

See you there!

EDIT: The color bugs me.. *layout n00b and has no idea how to fix*
Logos
Posts: 627/641
Originally posted by Nagis
Anyways...

I bet our founding fathers would be shitting themselves in their grave right now.


Only at the liberties enjoyed by peoples who wouldn't have had them at that time.
天国JOE
Posts: 1905/2999		 The American Government is full of dipshits.

There, they'll have to wage war on Canada to get at me.

...oh, crap.
Bitmap
Posts: 5317/7838
Originally posted by Kaijin Surohm


I'm going back to my own little dimension. >.>


Careful my friend. I think they have that too. They already took take over imagination land.
Kaijin Surohm
Posts: 1474/1852		 But the government already conquered the moon >.>

I'm going back to my own little dimension. >.>
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Xeogaming Forums - General Chat - Freedom of speech near it's end?



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